In this episode, Kyle and Dakota interview Dr. Jim Baugh, a pastor and missionary serving in East Africa and the Caribbean. They discuss the importance of evangelism and discipleship in ministry and how Global Training Network is equipping pastors in the emerging world. Dr. Baugh emphasizes the need for reproducible and contextualized training, as well as the importance of loving one another and working together as the body of Christ. He also highlights the universal understanding of God and the recognition of sin in every culture, making evangelism relevant and necessary.
In this episode, Kyle and Dakota interview Dr. Jim Baugh, a pastor and missionary serving in East Africa and the Caribbean. They discuss the importance of evangelism and discipleship in ministry and how Global Training Network is equipping pastors in the emerging world. Dr. Baugh emphasizes the need for reproducible and contextualized training, as well as the importance of loving one another and working together as the body of Christ. He also highlights the universal understanding of God and the recognition of sin in every culture, making evangelism relevant and necessary.
Welcome to the Be Disciples podcast with your host, kyle Morris, and Dakota Smith. This is episode number 112 and we have a special guest with us today, dr Jim Baugh, or, as I refer to you, pastor Jim, because I grew up with you as my senior pastor. So welcome to the podcast for the second time. Thank you, it's good to be with you guys. Yeah, it's great to be able to sit down with you and to have these conversations. You know, being a kid and growing up alongside your son and just being able to reflect back on time growing up in the church Like you're a part of all of those memories because you were the senior pastor there. So whenever I preach or whenever I give any illustration of things of the past, like you're the pastor I'm talking about and so they're all good.
Speaker 1:So it's okay. So I really just brag that I can't sing at the end of my sermons. I can't break out in end of my sermons. I can't break out in song like you can, so that's the only thing I'm like. I just can't do that, so you're going to have to find someone else.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, it's been a joy to reflect back on time growing up in the church and then now being a pastor. So thank you for all that you've done as a pastor and what you're doing now. You're now with Global Training Network. You've been traveling the world to train pastors, to equip people for the ministry, and so you've been doing that for a while. How long have you been doing that now?
Speaker 3:This is going on our 16th year, so yeah. I was 12 when I started you're 12, yes, good no, yeah, so I'm actually 64 and, uh, and on the runway, you know, approaching 65, which is, um, some guys go man, it's time for retirement. No, it's time to get refired, because we're all in until jesus comes for us. So that's true. Yeah, amen, yeah, so I'm going to pass it off to dakota, because the way we're going to until Jesus comes for us.
Speaker 2:That's true, yeah, amen.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I'm going to pass it off to Dakota because the way we're going to kind of structure this one, you're going to be coming out to our church, to Auto Bible Church here soon, and you're going to be able to speak to our congregation, equip them in evangelism, talk about missions, be able to preach those sort of things. But we want to start off the conversation with missions and really dive into you know again what you get more of what you're doing, but also why do we?
Speaker 2:go on missions in the first place. Okay, so more more specifically, tell us what Global Training Network is all about and tell us how you're serving there currently. What are you guys doing?
Speaker 3:Well, global Training Network exists to equip and encourage I mean those two, two words are key Indigenous pastors globally, in the, in the emerging world. And the emerging world People say, well, what, what does that mean? We call it the third world. You could call I mean there's numerous ways to describe things and then they get rebranded. So the emerging world basically is, um, anything outside of north america, um, northern europe. I mean it would be africa, the continent of africa, south america, central america and asia, central America and Asia, where God is moving incredibly. I mean there's just people go oh well, you know the church, what's happening, and we're getting taken over. Well, no, not true. The church of our Lord Jesus is growing faster than any other entity on the planet, than any other entity on the planet. Every day, 70,000 people confess Christ as Lord in the emerging world. Every day in the Northern Hemisphere, 7,000 people confess Christ. So there's basically a 90-10 ratio.
Speaker 3:90% of what's happening globally in evangelism and discipleship is happening in the emerging world. So we are there to equip pastors and leaders to effectively help their people. Train their people to reach their own people with the good news. Train their people to reach their own people with the good news.
Speaker 3:The mission model that I grew up with and you guys probably are, you know, are acquainted with, was simply that we, you know, we go, we evangelize, we disciple. We're the key to planning the church, and yet Jesus told us in Matthew 28, we're to make what Disciples. So our ministry is that there's a paradigm shift happening, and that is is that we go to equip these pastors and leaders so that they can, in turn, reach their own people. They already know the customs, they already know the culture, they already know the language, and so we work in partnership as a team, and God's doing some amazing things. So that's what Global Training Network is and what it's doing 82 countries of the world we're involved with right now and we hope to be involved in 92 countries of the world in the next five years or so. So those are harder countries to get into.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are some of the main countries? If you're allowed to share that you've been working with recently and what's maybe like an anecdote of a particular pastor you know, if you were to just, of how he's been affected by GTN?
Speaker 3:Well, if 85% of them have a grand total of, let's say, five to 10 minutes of training, I mean, would you go to a? Would you go to a heart surgeon and say, hey, you're going to do this surgery on me, how much training have you had? He goes well about five to 10 minutes, but there's always you too, you know. Yeah, I mean, I'd be like I don't think so.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, so we've got, we've got guys doing, in essence, spiritual heart surgery on people who have no training and and that's that's evident, more evident in certain parts of the world than it is in others, in the emerging world, but, um, on a whole it's, it's about 85 percent of pastors globally have little or no training. The guys that we're working with in east africa, um, yeah, little or no training or what their training is is very rote and rudimentary. So some of the guys, you know, they don't even know Jesus and so and I'm not saying that in a derogatory way, I'm just saying that sometimes individuals are involved in ministry because it's an occupational choice. We have that in the United States and then find out you don't know Jesus.
Speaker 2:All right, jim. So let me ask you another question. You're currently serving in East Africa and the Caribbean. Tell us what evangelism and discipleship looks like specifically in that ministry?
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you Well my desire was to train guys in something that was and I'm going to use this word, it sounds very business-like but it's called something that's franchisable, something that's reproducible, and I know whenever we use that word franchisable it becomes somewhat mechanistic or non-relational, and that's not the case. But I just wanted to have training that could be uniformly multiplied. So I was looking online and found a guy that I had known from Multnomah School of the Bible back when I was working with college students in Portland, oregon, and he had developed. He was with crew for I think, four years or a couple of terms in Papua New Guinea and he had a number of discipleship manuals I think he had like three or four and then he had some Bible studies that I looked at and I thought, you know, I could utilize this and develop it into a three-level discipleship process in which every individual going through the training would have to multiply themselves three times before they could go on to the next level. So we did the training, we did small breakout groups, so they trained each other right, otj practice and so forth, and then they went out and they got their three. Well, they did that come back for level two, did that come back for level three and when they graduated from level three, they became master trainers. So a master trainer could take that curriculum and go anywhere he wanted to and multiply the training with the same credulity that I have, which you guys are looking at going.
Speaker 3:Okay, I know I know you, jim. Okay, I know I know you, jim. So, anyways, we did that. I had another buddy from GTN helping me, working with me on it. It's called MDM Making Disciples, or Make Disciples Multiply. You can look it up online. We have a little website and so that began to just exponentially grow. I started it in Haiti during COVID and it grew and grew and grew. And then we were invited by crew to integrate something called tablet evangelism, which is very effective in the African culture Because it's you guys remember the Jesus film that crusade put out in the, I think, mid seventies.
Speaker 2:Yep, well, they've redigitized it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they've redigitized it and we've put it, put it on tablets so you can. I mean, you guys can get the app on your phone and you utilize it. But it's the Jesus film. And then there are let's see, there are 60 lessons on discipleship using Discovery Bible questions that you can utilize to help your disciples grow after they meet Jesus. But we also integrated that discipleship process that I've been talking about into the follow-up of people who meet Jesus as a result of watching the Jesus film, and so, as a result of that, we have over 10 areas in Rwanda that are ready to start new churches. One of the master trainers he just sent me a note he's going to for level three because he's already gone level one, level two. He's going back to Kenya, uganda, tanzania and Burundi to continue training on level three. It's multiplied to those other countries.
Speaker 3:In Haiti, the same thing took place, in that this discipleship process continued to grow, even over into Dominican Republic. But, as we know, what's happened in Haiti now? That multiplication process has stopped going into the DR because they've closed the border. You guys know that They've closed the border between Haiti and Dominican Republic. So, but this couple of the master trainers who had to leave Port Prince over machine gun fire. They lost everything.
Speaker 3:Guys. I mean consider that that you guys are sitting, we're sitting in our homes, you're sitting in the church. If some guys came with AKs and they just said you know, get out or we'll kill you, they had to leave their churches. They had to leave everybody scattered like a big dispersion. And so he's up in the mountains about 50 miles away from Port-au-Prince and he's starting new churches. Now he just said I have six new individuals who went through level one. We're going through level two. Actually that was a result of their evangelism outreach and so he told me he goes. I've got four areas that are church plants, new Christians, new churches, and they're meeting under a mangrove or they're meeting under banana trees or they're meeting under something, but God is just moving very powerfully in multiplication in that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm. Jack, I'm excited, yeah, and isn't that how it works in the book of Acts? Isn't that what we see?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Persecution, dispersion, more churches.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. That's an excellent point, kyle. So it's like you know the word. The word persecution is I can't remember the exact the Greek word for it but but the literal meaning of it is the crushing of a grape. And you guys know you get up in the middle of night. You know I'm kind of hungry. Let's see, you know, if we can have a little snacky, wacky and uh.
Speaker 3:Well you step on a grape, one of the kids left on the kitchen floor and what happens? It's like oh, what did I step on? Well, you look, the grapes smash the juices everywhere. And that's the idea, uh, that you, you step on a believer and, in essence, you go to other places. Yeah, and that's how God works. In the pain of persecution, there's the process of multiplication.
Speaker 2:I think what's encouraging about what you're saying is the initiative to church plant. I think, America, we've made it way too difficult in that you have to have, you know, all of these commodities before a church can be planted and when. So when all of those things are stripped away and you remember what a church plant is. It's a collection of believers that come, that assembled together for the glory of the Lord and dwelt by the Holy Spirit, this becomes reproducible, multiplying in other areas where you have no need for other comfort. So out of a Bible, we're talking about how we can reproduce Bible-believing churches here in this town, but the goal ultimately is to reach the nations as well. So that's incredible, Jim.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it is exciting. One of the one of the challenges we've had in Rwanda and it's a product of the genocide that happened in the nineties is that once a group grows to a certain level let's say five people or 10 people meeting in someone's home then they literally have to do something facility-wise, because the local government is not excited about that. They don't know what are these people meeting for, what are these rabble-rousers? And they'll have individuals who will report you go, well, it's communism, well, no, it's a result of upheaval within the context of a culture. And so the local government is saying we don't want to have that happen again. So that's one of our challenges.
Speaker 3:When, know, when, I thought about the potential and the fruit of training people to evangelize? You know, culturally, contextually, we have to evangelize in relationship to the context of our culture. But you do not change the message. That's right. In fact, I got a book coming out. I want to tell you guys about it. It's called Good News Going Bad, and it's about something called the insider movement, a movement that exists to somehow some way contextualize the gospel to reach Muslims more effectively.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I believe in contextualization, but we can't contextualize to the place that you leave behind the content. Right, yeah, you change the doctrine. Yeah, that's what's happening, I mean, in the emerging church. You say, well, let's just be everything to everybody. And Paul says I want to be everything to all men. To the Jew I want to be Jew. To the Greek, I want to be a Greek. But one thing Paul never says is I became a pagan to reach the pagans, right.
Speaker 2:So we were just talking about this yesterday on another podcast episode and just what actually the insider movement is. And you cannot place culture above doctrine. You can't sacrifice doctrine on the altar of culture.
Speaker 3:No, you can't, because it's.
Speaker 2:Contextualization has limits.
Speaker 3:The Word of God is what transforms culture. It's not the other way around. I've had guys in training where they go oh, we can't. Let's say, let's say Matthew 18, you know a leader's in sin, what are we to do? Well, we're to go to him like a father, confront, you know in grace, and so forth, and if he listens, great. You know, repents awesome. If not, then you take another right. So that's the process. You know, repents awesome. If not, then you take another right. So that's the process. You don't get on Facebook and go hey, let me tell you about this guy.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Which that happens plenty, it happens. And so the guys in Southeast Asia or even in Africa, we can't excuse me, we can't do that. Why can't you do that? Well, it's completely contrary to our culture. And my response is it's completely contrary to my culture. Yeah, no, nobody. Nobody wakes up in the morning and goes let's see who I can confront today. Right, man, I love confrontation, but it's still biblical. I love confrontation, but it's still biblical. Yeah, but it's biblical, but we always what speak the truth in love.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so there are many aspects of evangelism and discipleship that are countercultural, but it actually addresses the need of the human heart, and this is something just to share. A word of encouragement with everyone is that everyone, in every place, with all kinds of faces, they all face the same issue. Number one there is a universal understanding that there is a God. Amen, you know. I mean talk to the guys who are in in Ukraine right now, you know, who are formerly atheists and they've got shells going over their head. They're thinking God. If you're there, you know so.
Speaker 3:So it it might be that, um, they're, they're not atheists, they may be agnostic, going man if there is a God. It's kind of like the old adage that atheists say there is no God and I hate him very much. Right, which is completely inconsistent. But the agnostic would say well, I'm not, you know. I know there's something, but I'm not sure who it is. So all around the world there's this universal. I think, as the word says, in the innermost being of our hearts we know there is a God. The second universal truth is the recognition of sin, and so the big question is what am I going to do with my sin? How can my sin be paid for? And God answers that question Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Speaker 2:Religion can't answer it.
Speaker 3:Our morality can't answer it, Self-realization can't answer it. Self-realization can't answer it. So those individuals that we go oh, I don't know. Is there anybody out there who really wants to hear the gospel anymore? Yes, because they all have an inward struggle with things that they know they're doing that they shouldn't be doing, and they know that they're guilty of something the Bible calls sin. Paul writes about it in Romans. It says you know, they know it in their what? In their hearts? Yep their conscience their witness.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. So that's that encouragement to say you know, god is working in the hearts and minds of people before we even speak to them and that's an encouragement for those who go. Is there anybody out there who really wants to hear this message? Absolutely, god is preparing them to hear from you. Amen.
Speaker 1:Amen. Well, let's transition a little. Let's take some of what you've said. Let's say, if you could talk to Jim Baugh entering into Mesa Baptist so many years ago, right, you could talk to him and say, hey, I'm now traveling the world, I'm doing all these things to spread the gospel, to equip people. But you, young Jim, I want you to know, as a young pastor, these are some things that you should be looking out for. These are some things that you should be putting into your philosophy of ministry, into what you're doing Now. I grew up with you preaching the word of God and that has laid a foundation for my life and for my family's life, and that's that's amazing. So we know that that was foundational to your ministry preaching the word of God. But but beyond that, evangelism, discipleship, what would you tell a young Jim Ball?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, there's a number of things, that's a good question.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very good question and we'll handle that next week. No, I think you know Acts chapter 2, is always the template for me in ministry, even though I could say I did these things effectively Thank you, holy Spirit and I did these other things ineffectively. Aspects of what some call, you know, the mark of a healthy church is prayer, worship. That's what they did. The teaching of the apostles' doctrine, which I count as the whole counsel of God, the, you know the word is central, worship is central, the fellowship and equipping of the saints. You'll notice that they didn't just have one. You know one big event and then one big midweek event. I mean they were meeting in homes, they, they, uh, they had evidently some, some uh, impactful leadership development so that in those home meetings, those home gatherings, you didn't have people going off, you know, on some doctrinal weird tangent, although that happened because 90% of the new Testament is written to combat doctrinal error. So you have the multiplication of leadership, the training and equipping of leaders, and then you have the impact of that kind of spiritual health in the community.
Speaker 3:The Bible says that every day the Lord was adding to the church, they had some impact within the context of their culture by the love that they had for one another, first right, and then the love that they had for their community. You know, jesus said this in John 13,. By this will all people know that you are my disciples if you love one another. And it's interesting to me that one of the greatest apologetics or defenses of the faith is not necessarily our ability to articulate you know, the four points of the gospel, but our ability to articulate and demonstrate our love for each other. And so you know, those are all challenges. I mean, when I began as a pastor, you know I was 32 years old. Everybody was, ah, you're so young, and so forth. But I really attempted to develop those four aspects of ministry, and leadership development was one of those key issues.
Speaker 3:The other thing is is when you know every church is going through, I would say you know there's a transitional aspect in ministry. I went into a church that was. It was, you know, an old church. I mean it'd been around for I don't know how many years 30 years or 40 years prior to my coming. And so there's this aspect of change that younger pastors want that overlooks, I mean, right now, I think. I think it's, I think it's. It's a bad thing that they come in going. We don't want these people. We want these people. We want this demographic. We don't want this demographic. And yet God says these are the sheep I've given you. So, so don't overlook. Don't overlook the, the, the older folks and the traditions and so forth that they're set in. I mean, teach them out of it, and it's not an easy process. Yeah, because you got. You know the young bucks who come in and go.
Speaker 1:oh, we hate these old people you know, get rid of these old people, and it's the old people, you know.
Speaker 3:They don't stand, they don't raise their hands, they don't, and I'm like they're. They're part of the flock that God has given us and I have a responsibility, not to beat the sheep, but to lead the sheep and to care for them, and sometimes that process is not as easy and quick as it is when you're starting a brand new work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's a great word. That's a great word.
Speaker 3:And I've heard pastors go we don't want this demographic. And I'm like, yeah, but that's the demographic. Those are the sheep that God has given you. What's the first thing that Jesus said to Peter when he confronted him about his failure? He said Peter, do you love me? Right, then feed my sheep. Feed my sheep.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:He didn't go hey, forget those and and look for somebody who's 25. Yeah, he said, feed my sheep, train and equip my sheep. So, um, that was one of the biggest challenges that that I faced. Um was having churches, that and and also the challenge of comparison. Um, that you know well why. You know why are I mean we grew, I mean God bless the church. I think I was our church in Tillamook was bigger than the one that than Mesa when I came, and I know Mesa had gone through all kinds of stuff, had quite a history of of. You know, we talk about churches multiplying and some churches are better at division than they are at multiplication, right, that's an accurate word.
Speaker 3:We've gone through that, but God blessed the work and it certainly wasn't as big as some of the other churches that were going on around it. But because it was a different demographic, it was a different ministry, and one of the challenges another challenges I faced was that challenge of comparison. And God does not call me to compete with other churches. God calls me to complete the ministry with other churches and see how we together can reach a community that's lost and without Christ. So that's easier done or said than done, because sometimes, guys, you know they're, they're, they're not kingdom minded, and I mean they're kingdom minded but it's basically their own kingdom instead of God's.
Speaker 3:And so I remember the story of one pastor. You know, a guy came to me and goes hey, we're not growing like such and such a church and we're not doing that. How come we're not this? How come we're not? And the pastor said you know something? I'm just so thankful for their growth and we need to come alongside them and pray that they would continue to grow, that God might bless them and bless us in the process, that together we can reach this community for Jesus. And that was the heartbeat that I wanted to have and I challenge you guys to have the same one, not of competition but of completion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I resonate with you. Know this is my fifth year in the pastorate and you know there's always the year of the honeymoon stage and then year two and year three. There was nothing, was ever to the point of division, but the congregation here was about 70 or so, and then we saw some immediate growth and it was having to shepherd our people through that change that they had never seen before, and so I resonate with that. But I'm also grateful for your thought on that. These are the people God has given you, and so they're to be involved in that process to make disciples, and I think that's the biggest heartbeat, is our directive, is the great commission there?
Speaker 2:are people that need to be reached. You have the capability to do so. Let's get going.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And you know one. I've had numerous conversations with pastors and leaders and I'll never forget one guy going, you know, and they were in I'll call it a transitional church saying, you know, this is the demographic that I want. I don't want these old people. And I said, look, you know, you've been called to shepherd the sheep, the older people. They don't have the abilities to do this or that or the other thing, but there are certain giftings and abilities that they've been given and as a shepherd, you're called to direct them in their strengths and to equip them in their weaknesses so that they can fulfill the great commission in the way that God is empowering them to do it. And my 92-year-old mother empowering them to do it. And my 92 year old mother, you know, is not going to be quote unquote bringing in the sheaves. You know, I mean a lot of her relational connections have already gone home to be with the Lord. But I'll tell you one thing that she will do is she will pray and she will support financially and if you share the vision with those individuals who make up the body, right, I mean, we're not.
Speaker 3:That was the analogy that Paul gave to the church in Corinth. He said you know, we're not all eyeballs. You know what would it look like? I'll never forget being in seminary and my professor saying what would it be like if a bunch of eyeballs came rolling out of their cars on Sunday morning to the church service? He said we're a body and every body has different parts that, working together, accomplish the goal. So in that ministry, as young pastors, consider every person that God has given to you as precious, and they are sheep that need to be shepherded and they are individuals that need to be equipped and encouraged in their walk with God so that they can fulfill the great commission and make disciples in the way that God has gifted them to do it Right.
Speaker 2:We receive that. Amen, amen, amen. So let's close it up with this last piece. When you come out here in a few weeks, in April, we're going to be having an OBC Academy and we've done OBC Academies before. We have, of course, home groups, but then these are our periodic, or you could say like our quarterly trainings. We've been doing hermeneutics for the last five or six sessions or so that we've done it. This will be the first one that we're going to be doing in the realm of evangelism. We're going to tackle both the theological spectrum and the practical areas of how do we actually get out with our neighbors and share. So you're going to be speaking specifically in that first hour from the theological and practical side. Theological and practical side. If you were to just give our people a little appetizer, if you were to give our people just enough of a primer to get ready for our next OVC Academy, what do you have in store for them? Well, I'm looking forward to be there.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I'm excited about it. I think that vantage point of God's heartbeat has always been to reach others. I mean, you know, the Bible tells us in the New Testament God is not willing that any should perish, and so oftentimes we think that the ministry of evangelism and discipleship came, I mean primarily through the call of Jesus, which I affirm Amen, or perhaps even through Paul. I mean Paul modeled that. But actually it's the heartbeat of God from the book of Genesis all the way through maps. You know, revelation I mean the whole of the Bible is God's heartbeat to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus.
Speaker 2:Amen. We're looking forward to having you out here, brother. You have been a major influence in the both of our lives and our congregation, indirectly, has benefited from your faithfulness over the years. So we're looking forward to having you with our elder team, having you here at the OVC Academy, having you in the pulpit preaching, so we're looking forward to having you out and, brother, it was great spending time with you today. Thank you, thank you.