Would you believe me if I told you that disagreements and separations can lead to growth, especially in ministry? Brace yourselves as we revisit the complexities of the discord that occurred between Paul and Barnabas during their planning for the second missionary journey. We dissect the contentious debate about revisiting the churches versus including John Mark, an issue that ultimately led them to embark on separate journeys.
Ever been curious about how to handle ministry separations maturely? We've got you covered as we delve into the dynamics of Paul and Barnabas' sharp disagreement. We highlight Barnabas' persistent advocacy for John Mark and how this divergent viewpoint led both parties onto different paths of service. Our candid conversation challenges you, our beloved listener, to reflect on your own experiences with ministry separations, emphasizing the significance of addressing these situations with respect and maturity.
The final note of our discourse zeroes in on the intriguing issue of managing disagreements and conflicts within the church. By drawing insights from the Paul and Barnabas scenario, we underline the importance of humility and respect amidst strife. This engaging discourse culminates in the reconciliation between Paul and John Mark, hence showcasing the essence of forgiveness and mutual respect. As we wrap up, we introduce Timothy, a crucial figure in Paul's discipleship efforts. So, buckle up for a soul-stirring exploration of God's word together, packed with enlightening insights that challenge us all to grow in faith.
Would you believe me if I told you that disagreements and separations can lead to growth, especially in ministry? Brace yourselves as we revisit the complexities of the discord that occurred between Paul and Barnabas during their planning for the second missionary journey. We dissect the contentious debate about revisiting the churches versus including John Mark, an issue that ultimately led them to embark on separate journeys.
Ever been curious about how to handle ministry separations maturely? We've got you covered as we delve into the dynamics of Paul and Barnabas' sharp disagreement. We highlight Barnabas' persistent advocacy for John Mark and how this divergent viewpoint led both parties onto different paths of service. Our candid conversation challenges you, our beloved listener, to reflect on your own experiences with ministry separations, emphasizing the significance of addressing these situations with respect and maturity.
The final note of our discourse zeroes in on the intriguing issue of managing disagreements and conflicts within the church. By drawing insights from the Paul and Barnabas scenario, we underline the importance of humility and respect amidst strife. This engaging discourse culminates in the reconciliation between Paul and John Mark, hence showcasing the essence of forgiveness and mutual respect. As we wrap up, we introduce Timothy, a crucial figure in Paul's discipleship efforts. So, buckle up for a soul-stirring exploration of God's word together, packed with enlightening insights that challenge us all to grow in faith.
Welcome to the Be Disciples podcast. With your host, kyle Morse, dakota Smith and David Glavin, we are going to continue our study in the book of Acts. Welcome to December 2023. Merry Christmas, y'all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, merry Christmas, merry Christmas. My family and I went to Bethlehem this last weekend. We went back in time. We went back in time. No, bethlehem, the Christmas walkthrough here in the community that we have. My wife and I played Mary and Joseph. I was Joseph Smith, well you ever caught that? No, we're not. We're not Mormons, by the way. That's actually heresy, false teaching. Don't follow. His last name is Smith. My son, my baby son, was Jesus. Yes, yes, so it's great, that's good, david, what about you?
Speaker 3:We went Friday night and it was a great time. We didn't serve, but we participated. My children love seeing the story come alive, and then all the actors did a very good job.
Speaker 2:Nice. The fog on Saturday night was pretty extreme, so it actually added to like the authenticity or the mystique of it all and it was like just barely lightly drizzling, misting and having to walk through. You know they have a path like with hay and sand for you, so it's not totally muddy, but it was really, really cool. And it wasn't that cold, it was just the elements In the timber. The wind dies down, so it wasn't too bad, but we had a great time. Long story short set the tone for the Christmas season, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we just encourage anybody. I'm sure whether you're in Ottawa or in a different community, there's probably something that a church is putting on you can take your kids to and walk through and kind of just be able to see some visuals of the story of Jesus, the coming Messiah, and we're excited for this season. We've got a Christmas program with the kids this month in December, December 17th. If you're in Ottawa, we have two showings that day, one at four and one at six, and so you should come check it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's called Sheep, shepherds and the Swaddling Cloth, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So let's pray and we're going to then get into the book of Acts. Let's do it. Father, thank you just for the opportunity to do a podcast and talk about your word. We enjoy this time, even as pastors, just to open the Bible together and have conversation and just to be able to model and help anybody along as they're studying your word. And so be with us this morning as we record, as we discuss, and I pray for all those who are listening that they would be encouraged by your word In Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 2:Amen. Hey, we have been in a place in Acts 15 where, of course, we saw the issue with the Jerusalem Council. Do Gentiles need to be circumcised first and then they're officially counted as the fold, or is it enough to just say that the Holy Spirit has circumcised their heart and they're now believers? I thought, of course, being a Christian who believes in grace and faith and Jesus for salvation, that the council made the right decision. No, you don't need to add an additional work to the work of Christ to be saved. So now we find ourselves at the end of chapter 16, which, excuse me, which actually begins the second missionary journey of Paul and Barnabas. So we're going to read verses 36 to 40. And, kyle, why don't you just pick up the text and let's dive right in? It's only a couple verses we're going to talk about here, but actually there's much to be spoken.
Speaker 1:Alright, verse 36. After some days, paul said to Barnabas let us return and visit brothers in every city where we proclaim the word of the Lord and see how they are. Now. Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark, but Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. And there arose a sharp disagreement so that they separated from each other. Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus, and Paul chose Silas and departed, having been commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord, and he went through Syria and Sicily strengthening the churches.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so interesting. Here just a couple of thoughts. They're on their way for their second missionary journey, but almost a sentence or two later you see the conflict of the church. Right, and we kind of alluded to this a little bit in last week's episode. But let's start up. If we were to examine verses 36 to 40, specifically the conflict at hand, let's just start with the conflict. What do you all see? You know again I'll read it. It says verse 37, barnabas wanted to take John, called Mark along with them also. But verse 38, paul kept insisting that they should not take him along, who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. And there occurred verse 39, such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus. Paul chose Silas and left, being committed to the brethren. To the grace of the Lord, I know I just repeated the text, but repeating the problem is not a bad thing. What do we see in the midst of that?
Speaker 1:Well, paul seems to take the initiative and just to say, hey, we need to go back to strengthen the church in these places I mean that's the start of the conversation to Barnabas. So then both of them have been traveling together, they've been in Antioch, let's go back, let's go strengthen the church, the places where we've already been. One return back and I mean there's a letter that that's going to go out, right, that we just talked about. But then going back and kind of maybe reestablishing, letting them know, encouraging them, and then the conflict arises that Barnabas wants to take John Mark. And so who's John Mark? I think is the first question we have to ask, because that is the tension of the conflict. But Paul thought best not to take with him one who had withdrawn from them. So John Mark, who's he? And then two, he withdrew. What was the circumstance? What happened? Why did he withdraw from them? And why is Paul not on board with walking in ministry with John Mark at this time? Those would be questions that I would ask right off the bat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and what we saw previously was that in the first missionary journey, it appears that John Mark decided to leave early on. It's not like he endured, you know, this long period of missionary travel and he had been totally discouraged one time after the next, after the next, after the next. It was more of like a very short lived thing, like at least one might be able to assume. He started out with great enthusiasm, great confidence yeah, I'm gonna go with Paul and Barnabas. And then he gets there and he realizes that death is always knocking at the door and his life is at risk and there's, you know, difficulties that abound. So he goes home early. Now they're going to the same churches which, by God's grace, established Paul and Barnabas. They actually didn't end up dying. I'm just what I'm trying to do is step into Barnabas's shoes and to think you know what If the Lord preserved our life the first time? John Mark needs to see this and he needs to make the second go around with us. Let's give him another chance.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then you have Paul saying I don't want to give him another chance. That's right. You know I've kind of I can see both sides because I feel like I've been on both sides of this.
Speaker 1:Before In youth ministry I had an individual that I wanted to serve alongside with me. You know, had conversations maybe, knew some weaknesses at the time but thought, you know, young man, I want to help train him up. If this is something he's called to and did so and was disappointed and, you know, when things got hard or when things were questioned and, you know, ran away from the ministry, you know I would if I, as in that situation, similar to Paul, that individual came back and wanted to do ministry again, I would probably say no, you need to go do it somewhere else. That's probably what I would say because I don't have that trust there to come and do this ministry alongside with me. Now I can see Barnabas perspective too. Hey, he wants to keep going, even though he messed up. He wants to keep going. And we know Barnabas because we're told he's the son of encouragement. Of course he has the personality of oh yes, come along, we'll keep training you, I want to encourage you and keep going, so I can see both a little bit.
Speaker 3:I think the other thing that I noticed and we ended here a little bit last week where you see the contrast in the outcome of conflict Prior you had conflict, the discussion with the leadership over whether or not new believers should be baptized.
Speaker 2:They should be baptized.
Speaker 3:By the spirit first then underwater after Circulized Circumcision, that should happen to new believers too, just not physically Correct.
Speaker 1:Just not the heart, the physical circumcision. But it's not wrong to be circumcised either. Where you solve, resolve oh man, here we go.
Speaker 2:The conflict that was reconciled. We totally just hijacked what you were saying.
Speaker 3:David, I try to be serious with these people, always joking.
Speaker 2:This right here is a great sampling of some of the discussions we have in the office? No, we're not distracted all day long. We have fun though.
Speaker 3:So, whereas before there was reconciliation, the spirit intervened and led and they came to a conclusion. But then, here there's the word sharp. There was sharp disagreement between two brothers who have served alongside each other and endured for the gospel. They weren't able to resolve it between themselves, they separated. So a couple questions rise in my mind. Is this something that maybe was inevitable, part of the Lord's plan that they separate, barnabas being more of the encourager and Paul being more of the driven ambitious, and that Barnabas was meant to take John along with him and that this is how the Lord was going to use that? But either way, god's work was done and I believe that they reconciled down the road, I'm sure interpersonally, but as far as for the gospel message, god continued to do his work.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, we see Barnabas come into the picture, acts, chapter 4, at the very, very end. The people are selling things, they're contributing to the church to help people in need, and Barnabas is seen right at the end. He's a Levite and he sells land which is already funny because he shouldn't have land in the first place. And so he sells his land and gives it to the church. He establishes a reputation amongst the believers, the Son of Encouragement, the one who's willing to sacrifice all of this for the glory of God. At that time Paul, who would have been Saul, was a young man who was a Pharisee, who was out to get Christians. So we look at the maturity where Barnabas was already a mature Christian, I would say, but pretty mature one at that time at least willing to recognize his life has been given over to Christ, growing and establishing trust with the apostles. Who brings Paul to the apostles to say this man is trustworthy? Barnabas. Barnabas brings them. Barnabas has put everything into Paul, has invested time and effort and trust and has just continued to pour into Paul and establish him as a true leader of the church, to help that along the way. So now there's a disagreement, I would say, between the one who was discipling and the disciplee, and now there's a conflict between the two. The personalities clash. Now this is many, many, many years later. Their friendship has been for a really long time, so this isn't like they're just been friends for a couple years. They've been friends for over a decade for sure, even when we know longer than that. So I never considered that that's great, you know. So there's all this background that we just get an axe, just knowing where Barnabas started, where Paul was converted, the timeline of it all. Paul man, barnabas was the one who stuck his neck out for Paul. That's who Barnabas is. And now what is Barnabas doing for John Mark? The same thing, the same thing.
Speaker 1:So I'm sure Barnabas was disappointed in Paul. This is where I see the Barnabas side of it. Paul, I invested in you. I took you in when nobody thought you were safe, where they thought you were trying to be a spy and come in here and destroy us. But I brought you in, I discipled you, I loved you, I encouraged you.
Speaker 1:And now, when I'm trying to do the same thing with somebody else who's fallen short in way less ways than you have, you don't want to go with us. You don't want him to come with us. So I can see Barnabas there going hold on, paul, you're getting a little ahead of yourself. But then, at the same time, I get what Paul's doing too. Like I said, there would be people that I would have a hard time to trust, especially with ministry, something that's so important. Maybe Barnabas isn't saying, hey, I want him to come along and do everything we're doing, but I just want him to come along with us to learn, and Paul is at this time, just unwilling to do that.
Speaker 1:So who's wrong, who's right? I'm not sure if there's a wrong or a right here. I see both sides. I see good points on both sides, but a relationship between two really good friends is being fractured in this moment because both of them are not able to reconcile in this moment and maybe, like you said, david, that's okay. They go two different directions. They both go and do ministry for the gospel.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I can see both sides and I think, barnabas being the more probably more wise, mature out of the two, barnabas is probably trying to teach Paul some grace and Paul's a little bit more. No, I got things to do. I can't let this get in my way, and that's the personality of Paul we see throughout the New Testament. Look, if you're not on board, I'm moving on. And there's some good things with that too. He doesn't allow things to distract him and he pushes forward and he challenges people and he corrects people and he continues to be a leader, a true leader of the church, and so there are positives that come out with both of these personalities.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that I could see on Paul's side being is, like you know, it is true I've had a really rough past in Barnabas. You came, but that was post conversion. John Mark has been saved, does know the grace of God. He has a history of possibly being the one to have already run from Jesus when Jesus was arrested in the garden. No, so he had face to face, you know, time with Christ. He's had face to face time with us and now, after having seen the grace of God, now he wants to sit down. So maybe just adding to this and this is why it was called a sharp disagreement- yeah because you can look at both, both angles, both sides of it.
Speaker 2:I do want to say that I really am encouraged by Barnabas and what he does in verse 39. And I just caught this for the first time ever just sitting here, Verse 39, there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another and Barnabas took Mark with him. But sometimes we maybe treat as frivolous where they went. Look what it says. Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus. Okay, so they're currently in Antioch, but Cyprus is oh, I don't know. I'm looking at the map here Looks to be about 100 miles away on the Mediterranean ocean. Cyprus is an island just southwest of Antioch. So they actually went to a place that was not reached yet during Paul's first missionary journey. They went to a brand new place. And then, if you look at Paul's second missionary journey, he goes from Jerusalem to Antioch. Then from Antioch he goes all the way around Asia Minor, all the way to Berea, makes his way into Europe a little bit We'll see that later in chapter 16. And then on his way back. The text actually I can't tell by way of the map if they actually stop it the Cyprus or they don't, but the text maybe assumes that they do stop at Cyprus, which is really interesting. So Barnabas took the shorter travel, but they still went somewhere unreached. Paul took the much longer route, but kind of comes back around to Cyprus later.
Speaker 2:I have a note here in my Bible that says the following, maybe just to add to the weight of this here is an example of separation because of personality or practicality, not because of doctrine, and it seemed to be the only solution to the problem. God brought good out of it in that two missionary teams were sent out and Barnabas's continued interest in John Mark rescued him from possible uselessness. So I guess I never really considered that before. It's one thing to separate on doctrinal grounds that's necessary it's another for the practicality of things, and sometimes in ministry that does take place. Have y'all ever been in ministry? Or David, you're gonna say something, but I have another question for us.
Speaker 2:No, go with your question, Well have you ever been in a ministry setting before where you did have to separate because of practicality or personality, not because of doctrine, and then vice versa? Have you ever been in a place where you had to separate because of doctrine, which is the right separation or a necessary separation every single time? I don't know about doctrine.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've definitely chosen not to enter myself into a ministry situation because I disagreed with some. You could say gray areas, sure. Or it could go either way, sure when either way is probably not wrong. Maybe one's more wise, you could say, or not, it just depends. And I just chose that probably wouldn't be a good personality fit either, and so I just didn't know that. I didn't know that personality fit either, and so I just didn't pursue it because it just didn't seem like it would be good Not that the person who was doing the ministry someone to be disrespected, because that's not the case very respected individual. But I chose to not do that. I just felt like God was saying this is not the place, and a couple months later he had a place for me to go, and so a place that worked out and allowed me to grow and to experience some new things in church and ministry To auto a Bible?
Speaker 2:Yeah, prior to auto a Bible yeah, you had an opportunity in Phoenix before you came here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, an opportunity in Phoenix, but I ended up at Corona Baptist in Chandler with Pastor Mike Molina, which was a better situation for the time and my schedule. So I feel like, yeah, his personality was a lot more, allowing me to do new things, allowing me to preach from the pulpit from times, giving me the practice, giving me the opportunity, and Pastor Mike did that. And so I'm not sure what I got that same reps and that same opportunity in the previous one and really just had to do with personality. I just didn't think it would work and I've had personality clashes in non-ministry related things before in the workplace, where either I was a supervisor or not and recognize that this is not going to work well if we don't recognize our differences and be able to work differently.
Speaker 1:Even if we have this situation, it has to stay the way it is. We need to recognize our differences and respect each other and, yeah, that just takes maturity. It takes a lot of things for two different people and I'm not saying Barnabas and Paul aren't mature guys, I'm sure they are, but I think sometimes it just you just need to move on. And it doesn't mean they don't love each other, it doesn't mean they have ill will towards each other. They just weren't in the same place at this time and it wasn't going to work. And I think that's okay and we see it work out in the acts.
Speaker 3:It doesn't really specify if it was an amicable split, like they decided, well, let's divide and we'll go our separate ways, or if they're like we can't do this and like they went away angry with each other, doesn't really specify that. We just know that they separated. So I think it's really unfortunate in ministry when we separate in anger or when we separate without resolving something and just deciding to go with different views and to divide. I do have an experience in college where I was a part of a ministry and it's a little complicated to explain, you know, in the context of our conversation, but there was a. I was a student leader and we had a staff. You know our campus pastor at the time was over us, kind of oversaw us, and we had an issue in our skip ministry team where we would go and we would go to youth groups and conferences and we would lead weekend youth events and we would do skits and speaking and lead worship and we would do skits and we would often have this messianic figure in a skit that represented Christ and we would have an evil you know character. And when we would practice, we practiced two times a week and there was one guy who was on our team who usually played the evil character, and we had a rule in our practices that myself and my co-leader had established we leave our frustrations at the door.
Speaker 3:When we enter into practice, you know, we reset our hearts and this is our act of worship and we need to practice with good hearts, allowing the Lord to lead and cause.
Speaker 3:We would often come in and bring our conflicts and the weight of whatever's going on in our lives, so we tried to alleviate the best we could. This one student just really hung hard on. No, I channel that into the evil character that I play. I channel all of the wrong that's going on in my heart and I use that in my character and we felt that that was not a healthy way to do it. And that conflict led to going to the leadership and the leadership then decided that this student you know, since he wasn't following the leadership of the group that he should take a break for a time and actually out of that separation that was for separation, but he actually the Lord did some reconciling in his heart and probably was the hardest year, cause he was a really good friend came back almost a year later and said the Lord was really doing something in my heart and I was wrong and he came back and we reconciled. But it was a difficult year being on the same campus ministering with that separation.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah. There's a experience that I have probably back in 2015 I was serving at Mesa Baptist and I won't mention individuals names, but there was, I think, both a personality and a doctrinal issue that had arisen between the leadership of our church and another individual who was serving and teaching in a lot of places in the church. By all purposes and intent, this individual for sure loved the Lord and for sure loved to teach God's word and was making disciples and all kinds of things, but the type of doctrinal bent that he possessed did not align with the churches and so it kind of created this rogue ministry that was underneath the leadership but not underneath the leadership, and I remember being in the meeting that we had with said individual and it was just very emotional. A lot of people's feelings were hurt, broke up, and that individual ended up going his way for ministry, we ended up going ours for ministry and it just was not a pretty thing.
Speaker 2:I would even be willing to say this in the most simple and vague way possible. You know, we've been in ministry here now at Ottawa Bible for four years and there have even been times where we have had to say, hey, like it's okay to not be on on board with everything, but we need you to respect decisions that are made, and I think I can speak to that, because that happens in every single church, in every single leadership situation. Right, you're never going to have a church that agrees on everything, so this is a reality. The point I'm trying to make is that this is a reality in ministry, but God with submissive hearts can use it for his glory, even if the individuals end up saying, well, maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll do that. I think it's just. It's the reality of New Testament ministry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have to be really careful to not allow our maybe our resume or our experience or any of those things to cloud what the Lord is doing. You know Barnabas, who knows what they said to each other? But Barnabas could have said all the things I just said. Paul, look what I've done.
Speaker 2:What are you doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't know if he said that or not. They had a sharp disagreement, who knows what they said. But I think it's really important that we don't allow ourselves to become filled with pride. Yeah, that's what the enemy wants In these disagreements. Yeah, because I know the first thing I did, you know, before I even came here, was conversations with you, dakota. Yeah, like I was in ministry, in my own context, doing my own thing, that the Lord had me doing and you had had. He had you doing your thing, and we always talked about doing something together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for years, for years.
Speaker 1:Long time and you came to Ottawa and you became the senior pastor and so I was like okay, like this is an opportunity. God, are you calling me to this? One of the things I had to work through was well, you're the senior pastor and I'm not. And I have to get my head around that before I come in to recognize like we've never been in that situation before you and I were. You're my boss, yeah.
Speaker 2:That just hasn't been a thing.
Speaker 1:We've been friends and we've done ministry together, we've gone to school together, we've lived in an apartment together. We've been in all these different capacities. Paul Barnabas have also been in different capacities. Yeah, well, now we see Paul a little bit more pushing in the leadership and there seems to be a disagreement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Now I have to, which you and I have been on our own.
Speaker 1:We've been in disagreements as well as friends, which is good. Not even in ministry just as friends, but I think in ministry, like I know, I have to be careful. Like one I got to pick my battles, like if I don't agree with something Dakota's doing, I have to evaluate that. How much does this really matter?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Am I really going to push this? Is it really going to change anything? I'll wait. How about? This is something I'll just let it play out and we'll just see. I have to do that. I have to do, I have to evaluate. Is this something I need to hold Dakota accountable for? Is it that serious? Is it doctrinally related to anything that's going on? Do I need to address this? How do I address it? Is this a one-on-one thing? Is this an elder team thing, like? We have to go through all of those things to ensure that we're living above reproach, we're not being quick to anger in these sort of things and we're being mature in our disagreements. One is handling conflict well and handling conflict quickly. We have learned, you and I through ministry here at AutoBible, that handling conflict quickly seems to be the best when it comes to the results.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Otherwise you just have a veneer, one facade of unity.
Speaker 1:Yep and we see an axe. What do they do in axe with the deacons? There was a conflict and they handled it quickly. It seems like when there's conflicts, the council in Jerusalem. We need to handle this. We need to send out a letter and complete this conflict because we can't let it drag on. It's the same in your local church and ministries. Hopefully your leadership is handling conflict quickly and with maturity. Now, quickly may not mean in that exact instant, because they need time in prayer and to think just to try to talk about, to discern.
Speaker 1:Right. But I think we need to make sure we understand our roles, we understand the relationships that are there and in maturity and going to the Lord for help and strength and clarity. That is the path that we need to take. And so, again, paul and Barnabas both had good points in their disagreement, which led them to split and go their own ways. They are men, they're sinners, these guys aren't perfect like Jesus, and it could have just been a personality clash and I think it's okay. I think it's okay that they split.
Speaker 1:Now I think we're going to, because we've already read Acts ourselves. We know that there will be some reconciliation, but we also see that sometimes it's time to split and that's okay. And I hope that they split in a way that they kept their respect for one another, their love for one another, and I hope that in any situation where there's a split, that that would happen, that you still care for them, you'd still say good things behind their back, there would still be integrity and that's really important too. If there is going to be a split, are you still handling it with respect and care for the other individual, right? So there's, I think, all those to say we can be mature in splits, but we can also help a split not happen by recognizing some of these things ahead of time and being willing to submit to the order, to leadership and those sort of things.
Speaker 2:I think maybe this is a good place to land the plane. But if you read the book of Acts, you will find that there are alternations, literally alternating attacks between attacks which come on the church from the outside you know, unbelievers, spiritual warfare, stuff like that versus attacks and difficulties that come to the church from within, from believer to believer. And that's the pattern of the book of Acts. If you just go back and trace it, it literally just goes external, internal, external, internal, external, external, internal, and so it's kind of like this If you think that you belong to a church that doesn't have any troubles or any difficulties or any challenges, then you're either naive or everybody at your church is fully sanctified, glorified, perfect doesn't stand any longer. I love how this conflict ultimately ends, though, with Paul and John Mark, the one he didn't want to bring along. Let's close the episode with this.
Speaker 2:The very last letter that Paul ever wrote was 2 Timothy, and he's writing to Timothy, and it's in the final chapter of his last letter. Listen to what he says "'Make every effort to come to me soon, for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescent has gone to Galatia. Titus'. Many think this is more positively speaking. Titus went on a missionary journey to Dalmatia.
Speaker 2:Verse 11, "'only Luke is with me'" and then he says this "'Pick up Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for service'". What does that say about Barnabas' ministry? In John Mark's life? It rounded him out to the point where Paul was then able to say he's useful to me again. And you get this. You know this assumption that towards the end of Paul's life he did not want any loose ends left untied. So if he's able to say to John Mark you know, hey, luke, bring, bring him along with you, he's useful to me, that's a sign of completion and John Mark's life, and even Towards the end of Paul's yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's good that we see the example of Restored relationships, but in scripture that we recognize those.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe right now there's someone in your life that you're struggling with, that you've had disagreement with. You know I would I would, you know, encourage you to pray through what that would look like to reconcile, because you know Jesus has reconciled us Ultimately on the cross, and so we need to also have that same attitude of reconciliation. So we're actually called in the scriptures to the ministry of reconciliation, ultimately to Jesus and also Between each other and so David. Any final thoughts?
Speaker 3:My final thought is is in a caution in the application with conflict.
Speaker 3:Specifically, this is in in context of evangelical ministry, whereas they're going to and reaching people who, who are in their individual communities.
Speaker 3:But I think for leadership in the church, especially in our context, for leadership when they're working as teams, because we're talking about you know our, even our differences on this team, like you came in knowing each other and You've had your areas, and I've come on to the team now and we each are kind of navigating our way through Personality differences, maybe even sort of ministry, philosophical differences. But I think it's important as leadership, when we are working through reconciling issues, that it not be Done in in view of the congregation, those that we are leading, that we settle those things, that they not see that and and I think that division causes division in the church, you know, whereas their division was just, they divided and went separately to places that were outside of that context. But you know, in the church context, 2000, what years is 23 still, you know we need to be careful and and how we're leading our congregation, that we don't cause divisions Alongside our divisions.
Speaker 2:You know, as we're reconciling, working through that, so Another thought that I had, and I just picked this up isn't it interesting that the text of chapter 15, the Jerusalem Council, ended with a massive win? Here you have the Holy Spirit obviously doing something in the church. It's Paul and Barnum is together giving testimony to all that the Lord is doing. And then what follows that? What follows is okay. So what do we do next after such a big victory? And then, after such a big victory comes a Disagreement on how to handle the next step and and like that. That is interesting and that's hit churches too, and I think we can, we can all learn from that. Sometimes God is just saying I actually want to multiply and actually want to go to different Locations that you're not aware of. I want to go to Cyprus, I want Paul to go to Europe, I want to do both. So you know it's, it's pertinent that we have a humility to trust the Lord. So Amen.
Speaker 1:Thank you all for listening to the be disciples podcast. Next week we're gonna get introduced to Timothy, which is also encouraging because of so much Effort that Paul puts into his discipleship of Timothy. We see in both first and second Timothy, the letters, and so we get to have another person come in that we get to add to the mix that we get to discuss. So come back next time and we will get into the next chapter, and so please Take the time to share this episode or our podcast with even just one individual, really just. We want people to grow in their faith and their understanding of God's word. Even if they aren't Christians now know God's word. We want this to be used as a tool that people would know that Jesus Christ died for their sins and that they only need to believe, but their trust in Jesus, and that he has risen from the grave three days later. So please share this. We encourage you to get with people, open the Bible and study it together. Have a blessed week, you, you.