Get ready to join us for a milestone celebration on the Be Disciples podcast - our big 100th episode! We have a special guest, C.L. Mitchell. Starting with the questions, "Can you be a Christian without being a disciple?" A question that's often pondered, and we discuss it right here.
Highlighting the concept of discipleship, we explore its essence through a biblical lenses. We reflect on the Old and New Testament interpretations of discipleship, brushing upon its holistic approach and the Greek grammar behind the Great Commission.
Finally, we contemplate the significant concept of accountability in the life of a Christian, backed by implications of Second Corinthians 5. Gain insights from David, our co-host, as he shares the importance of service and the unique perspective gained from his experiences. Join us as we celebrate this milestone, reminisce, and enrich our understanding of discipleship.
Get ready to join us for a milestone celebration on the Be Disciples podcast - our big 100th episode! We have a special guest, C.L. Mitchell. Starting with the questions, "Can you be a Christian without being a disciple?" A question that's often pondered, and we discuss it right here.
Highlighting the concept of discipleship, we explore its essence through a biblical lenses. We reflect on the Old and New Testament interpretations of discipleship, brushing upon its holistic approach and the Greek grammar behind the Great Commission.
Finally, we contemplate the significant concept of accountability in the life of a Christian, backed by implications of Second Corinthians 5. Gain insights from David, our co-host, as he shares the importance of service and the unique perspective gained from his experiences. Join us as we celebrate this milestone, reminisce, and enrich our understanding of discipleship.
Welcome to the Be Disciples podcast. With your host, cal Morris, dakota Smith and David Glavin, we are joined today for our 100th episode with CEO Mitchell. How's it going?
Speaker 2:I'm well. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for being here. We're excited because this is 100 episodes of us, as Dakota said right before we started conversations about Jesus.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. One thing that we've aimed to do in all 100 episodes is we have aimed to have conversation over Scripture, so that those conversations over Scripture would not only be edifying to people as they're listening, but also to give somewhat of a structure or a format as to what it looks like to have conversations over Scripture. So imagine an individual sitting down and saying I don't understand where to start with the Bible. Well, what we're trying to give in this podcast is somewhat of a structure towards how you can have those conversations and some of those questions that you should be asking and answering as you're working through verse by verse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of the things that I looked back at, the episodes that we did, how we started out and where we are at now. Really, we started out in a place where we just kind of talked topical a little bit about what is discipleship, kind of about our friendship and how that's led to where we are now in ministry. We did a bunch of interviews with different people See how you were on one of our first a long time ago one of our episodes Somewhere in the first 10 episodes.
Speaker 3:Who's with us? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so kind of looking at those. And then we made this transition into you know what Mary wants to just open God's Word, read it, talk about it as if we were just at a coffee shop reading the Word together, to model what it means to sit down with somebody and just read the Bible discipleship with the Bible open. And so that's what we've been doing ever since. We've gone through the whole book of Mark, We've been in the book of Acts, and then every now and again we'll have an interview with somebody just to kind of add a little bit more. Maybe something culturally relevant, somebody come on and talk about something, or maybe just on apologetics or the inerrancy of Scripture, which we just had with Robbie, and so Robbie Lashua.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we had Robbie Lashua on recently. We've had Gary Habermas on the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we've Greg Koko, which we had in the past and we'll have him on in December, and so, yeah, we've had some great guests who have great knowledge specifically in discipleship. A lot of those guys have topics attached to them like apologetics or whatever, but they all seem to say the same thing. Really, I'm just really about discipleship. I just want people to know God's Word, and I find that to be refreshing and to understand that that's what we're doing, where we want people to be confident in just sitting down and reading the Bible.
Speaker 3:We'd be remiss if we didn't say this as well, but a part of the influence of this podcast came because, cl, you also have a podcast. Do you want to speak to that? The nature of the podcast is you and John Cawr sitting down as if you were drinking coffee or tea and having conversations over Scripture. Tell us a little bit about your podcast personally.
Speaker 2:It is a passion for his Word, and it actually started with the two of us just having theological contemplations together as friends, and they were of an in-depth nature and, interestingly enough, individuals who were privy to those conversations that we were having at a Starbucks I believe that is no advertisement for Starbucks, but they said you really should do something more formal and we were blessed to have a particular fellow from England who began that journey with us and it has been going for some time now, and so we've done exposition through books. We're right now in the midst of theological contemplations on the perfections of God, etc. But it's a wonderful thing to do. I think that there is another parallel betwixt our particular podcast and yours that, as you all, are best friends in doing this. We are best friends and we have the opportunity to do that, and he loves to entertain high and lofty thoughts concerning the divine, and then he loves to come low and pick at me and we have a great deal of fun doing so. Amen.
Speaker 3:Amen. So, Ciel, before we get going, would you share with our listeners just a little bit more about who you are? What are you currently doing in ministry? What does that look like right now in Arizona? What's God doing in your life, your family's life, in general? Give us a broad stroke. In Arizona it's hot.
Speaker 2:I think that's summative no, and the Lord is blessing on multifaceted fronts. I have the opportunity to teach academically to pastor, to oversee a series of churches, and my wonderful, beautiful sweetie and the children are doing quite well. So there are multitudinous things that I do. I suppose the hardest person for me to discuss is me. I trust that it'll come out through the discussion of sorts, but yeah the. Lord is very kind.
Speaker 3:Amen. And something else that's been a joy, just before we get started, is, david, your presence as pastor here on staff in the last couple of months, and then you also joining in on these last what would you say 10 episodes or so. It's just been really rich for you to continue to join us and to be a part of this staff. So why don't I do this, why don't I lead us in prayer? And then let's ask the first question of what does it mean to be a disciple according to the scriptures? Right now, my mind is particularly focused on Matthew's gospel. That's where we happen to be as a church right now, working through expositionally, passage by passage, but let's talk for our listeners what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. So, father, we just ask you right now that, for every listener that God, this would be beneficial to them. Lord, we ask you for our conversation to be blessed by you, to also be filled with accuracy. We pray that you would lead us topically as we peruse the scriptures and that you'd help us to be faithful and, god, for anyone listening who needs to grow as a disciple or become a disciple themselves. God, we ask you that you would do the work, through the power of the Holy Spirit and your written word, that it would have impact on their life, so that they would never be the same. We love you so much and we give you this conversation in Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 3:If I may begin, you know, the famous passage which assumes that disciples be made actually concludes the book of Matthew, matthew's gospel. This is called the Great Commissioned Passage. So Matthew 28, 18 through 20. Jesus closes saying this All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age". Jesus' great commission is that we go and make disciples. The going is, I suppose, the participle, the making disciples is the verb that anchors us in this passage. So what is foundational to this passage is that disciples are made, that they are taught, that they are baptized and that believers go forth with the confidence that, because Jesus has all authority, he is with them in that process of making disciples.
Speaker 3:But that begs the question what is a disciple. The word methete, I believe in the Greek also could be the word student. Jesus calls the believer today to make disciples in the same way that he went forth and he made disciples. Cl. I'm going to kick it off to you, since you are our guest. If someone said what is a disciple past the mere definition of being a pupil? If someone said what is a disciple of Jesus Christ, how would you answer that question? Initially off the cuff.
Speaker 2:Well, if I may just speak for a moment to this structure, to the Greek grammar, you're absolutely correct that what you have here is the main verb make disciples, and then you have three contemporaneous participle constructs that attend to that right. There are three outplays of that which would involve while you're going, which would involve teaching or, yes, teaching, and which would involve baptizing. So your main verb is make disciples, and then whilst you're going, and then baptizing and teaching. Okay, so then let's consider this concept or this ideology of disciple or discipleship While we see it here in the transitional testaments, is really not a transitional testamental concept. To begin with, it's really a first testament concept and at least most scholars, most of my fellow scholars, would argue that it does involve learning. But from the biblical text, whether it is the Talmudim in the first testament or the inter-testamental period or, as you said, the Maturias in the transitional testaments and what you'll see going into the New Testament, proper acts to revelation, what you're really going to see is you're going to see this holistic sort of concept, if you will. It is not just individuals given over to learning by means of an instructor or a teacher. It is individuals given over to a learning that works out peripatologically or in practice, or in practice or in lifestyle. So it is being under someone and with someone, relationally. That results, as it were, in then undertaking a life that mimics the individual who you are under.
Speaker 2:And of course we see this in the ancient world through the Purushim, through the Pharisees, we see this in the Sadducees, we see this in Greco-Roman Empire, when you have individuals who are philosophers, who had their style of disciples.
Speaker 2:So it has secular aspects to it, it has religious undertones to it, it has first Testament undertones to it and then it has transitional Testament with Jesus proper. And certainly you see it carried out then in the New Testament, in its extrapolation. So in a summative way it is being given over to the life of an individual who is educated if we're going to make it very biblical in biblical truth, in biblical truth. And a person who is not just immersed in biblical truth but is investing that biblical truth in someone else who is following not simply the what of their teaching but the how of their demonstration, so that the lives begin to look similar, and both of those similar lives are mimicking the ultimate life of Christ. So one might say, as in the Pauline corpus follow me as I'm following Christ, and it's not just I'm following the teachings of Christ, but I am becoming holistically more like Christ, and I invite you to that journey.
Speaker 3:And that's the word that you use right there, holistically, I think, is the key word, because one might think, oh, this just means that to transfer knowledge unto an individual. But it's not merely knowledge, it's also practice. In other words, does this have some type of transformative effect on your life? Is this leading you to a place of having the transformation of your mind, the renewal of your mind, and, I think, any type of discipleship per se that doesn't ultimately lead to a life change that looks more like Christ? You can't call that discipleship any longer. And I think even in the Proverbs, the discipleship manual, for you know, jewish teenage boys back in the day would argue that wisdom is only wisdom if it's practiced. Without practice it's just knowledge. But real wisdom has to be lived out.
Speaker 2:The book of Proverbs is really the king's summative take on Deuteronomy. It really is, and so it's. What does discipleship look like in the life of the king, or the young man who is being reared, not only to lead God's people, but is being reared to walk out? What truth looks like in servant leadership? And that, of course, comes from Dr Bruce Walkie, but that is really what that book is.
Speaker 2:So, as I said, you see it both in the First Testament, you see it in the Transitional Testaments, you see it in the New Testament, proper Acts to Revelation.
Speaker 2:You see a form of it, if you will, in the Greco-Roman Empire, societally in that day, and it is something that is certainly to be seen. However, I think there is this nuanced aspect, since we're in a Matthew's Gospel, that I think we should pick up on that when we come to the culmination of this particular Gospel, as it were, we're coming to a culmination that has seen Jesus teach, walk with, walk out and nourish what it looks like to become more like him before these men. So, really, when we come to the end of this literature, these are not a series of statements that are made, as I mentioned earlier the grammar these men are not so much given over to grammar as they are given over to a life that has been exposed to them, that has been divulged to them, that they have been immersed in in every way. And now the outplay of what that looks like is going to be walked out in the rest of the New Testament proper.
Speaker 3:Can I pitch something to you? Help me. I'm going to say something and I want to see if this is on the rails or it's off the rails, because the statement go, therefore, is in the participle. And then I'm also thinking of Acts, chapter one, where Jesus says the Holy Spirit will come upon you and you will be my witnesses. It sounds to me like Jesus is just assuming that his disciples will go. It's not a question of whether they must or they have to. It's a matter of him assuming that, in being a disciple, they will already go, especially because of the confidence of the Holy Spirit, I think make disciples, as the verb is imperitable.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I don't know that he's assuming as much as he's commanding. Commanding, yeah, and I think that his command then has three participial outplays, right.
Speaker 3:I think it looks like yes so.
Speaker 2:So when are you to do it while you're going? He here's the assumption, then, that this command is in effect as you are going. It's not special event oriented.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm. It is a lot of day.
Speaker 2:It's lifestyle, yeah, it's as I sovereignly and providentially Curry you throughout your day. You are always looking and identifying when you can find disciples and who the Holy Spirit might be Giving the internal, efficacious call to to become a disciple. Right Now. Let's pause for a moment and let's go back into the gospel of Matthew Shall we. Where did Jesus find his disciples? While he was going along the shore? Yeah, while he was walking by, and and there's a tax collector. So we see that that this language is not just this, this sort of okay. Let me break from the book and sum this up in a larger contextual facet. We've seen him Demonstrate this as he was walking the the streets of the of the Holy Land.
Speaker 3:Yeah, amen, amen guy. I have a couple more comments and questions that I could ask, but any, any, you know side Conversations, any side thoughts according to what's been said this far.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that that I see Could be a mistake and and I would like you to speak to this, as sometimes, as Christians, we get into conversations of systematic theology and we like to have all these systematic theological Deconversation but never bridge to applied theology, practical theology, and never get there which you're speaking to discipleship, being Taking God's word and living it and not just discussing theology. So do you think there's a mistake there? And and we send to get hooked, hooked on these systematic Theologies without discussing how these play out, how we live these things?
Speaker 2:You're gonna call it a mistake, I'm gonna say it's a miscarriage. Okay, I do think that we need to be very Doctrionally aware, don't we? Because if we're going to make disciples part of that responsibility, as they must have the right information, right and and I'm going to go To a primary place beyond systematic theology, because systematic theology is the summing up of of those truths, but I think it starts with a biblical theology, doesn't it? So we should be so immersed in the biblical truth and in the biblical text that we we see the outplay of that, or the carrying out of that properly, in Not only personal practice, but that personal practice should also be fruition or productivity. Let me restate it in this way, if I may, that the Bible knows nothing of an ethereal set of truths held that are not walked out in shoe leather, right, whether we go to the first Testament, or whether we come to the, again to the transitional testaments, whether we come to the prophets, as it were, whether we come to the book of Acts, to Revelation, even the format of the literature. Paul in Ephesians, you have three doctrinal chapters and then three dutiful chapters. Paul in Romans right, you have Romans. One through eleven, that's doctrinal in content and then twelve through the latter Sixteen. That is dutiful, right.
Speaker 2:If you look at the book of Deuteronomy, as you're looking at this, this is how this is to be walked out in the land. And and when you look at the book of numbers, how did they undertake those? It only records 38 out of the 40 years of their wilderness Wondering's. But after you receive this covenant, exodus, chapter 19 and Exodus, chapter number 20. How did you walk it out? The book of Joshua let's go in and conquer the land. The book of judges how did you do? The book of one, two kings and and one two chronicles what's the spiritual climate of what the political climate was from God's perspective? How were you living this out? How were you walking this out?
Speaker 2:The indictment of the prophets You're not adhering to truth and the way that you ought to be. With your mouths, you honor him, but your hearts are distant, they're divorced from that. So the entirety of the Bible has an anticipation, if you will, because of an imperative. You are not just to to Hear these things, take them into your earshot, as it were, but this very word Shamma and this very word Akkuo anticipate a hearing that in fact Undertakes the doing thereof, so the entirety of scripture. If we have a systematic theology that is summative in nature, because of the biblical text, it Suggests that that which we know are to be that which is done, and an individual who is not doing Really doesn't know.
Speaker 3:In accordance to the biblical paradigm, so I have a question, or a soteriological question to ask, because this is, I Think, debated often can one be a Christian without being a disciple?
Speaker 2:I'm going to suggest that, that an individual can be a, a Moderate disciple, in a way where he or she stays a technion, an infant, yes, right, but that's not the goal of the biblical text at all.
Speaker 2:And so Paul has words for this. They're walking in carnality. Yeah, they're walking, says the author of Hebrews, in such a way where, although they ought to be teachers at this time, they have need that they first be taught the principles and oracles of God. So is it possible to be grotesquely in mature and Be a follower of Christ to a degree? To an extent, yes, and here's why because I want to go back to this, this, this basis, this, this new Nuclear point of the discussion. Soteriologically Becoming a disciple is a positional privilege, courtesy, the work of Christ, not of the believer. Yeah, the believer then responds in Discipleship and maturity right, but I do not want to make their response Equal to the efficacious work of Christ by means of the Holy Spirit. I want to be very careful to distinguish that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, in other words, it's. It's as you mentioned, from Paul. It's possible that an individual be a carnal Christian. Now, I think there's a time and a place to ask the real question in whom have you placed your trust if something is Continued as a lifestyle? But I think so often we only ask that question Are you a true believer or not? And I think there's two questions that could be asked. The second possibility is how mature are you and what? What's going on in your life? Are you being fed? Are you growing? Are you maturing? Are you being discipled? And sometimes it comes down to that they remain in an infancy stage.
Speaker 2:If you look in the biblical text Was Samson a believer? Yes, he Bruce says he was.
Speaker 3:Yeah so it's a lot of things by faith.
Speaker 2:Did you ever mature? Yeah?
Speaker 3:no, until the end.
Speaker 2:I mean, he had a good moment there, but yeah, but even then he says this. He says Lord, help me so that I can avenge my two eyes.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, it's still not the glory of God.
Speaker 2:There's two right, he wants revenge for his two eyes, so he stays minimal, at best. His parents are nominal, and, and I could go through that, right. What about Gideon? He seems to go backward, and, and so I could go on and on. Throughout the warp and wolf of scripture pointing out individuals who Solomon went backward man. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So. So I want to be very careful about a heart-line theology that says that in maturity is Equivocal to A lack of the salvific grace of God. However, I do not want to give an immature person an Irresponsible comfort, because they're still a consequence.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. Their position in Christ is secure, but their condition Is another question that that needs to be needs to be handled in honor of dr Fred Shay, I think the language would be something of this nature, my mentor.
Speaker 2:They are eternally secure because of the work of Christ. It begs the question, however, will they be eternally significant? That's right? Yeah, that's right, and I think that person is going to be lacking in that which they accomplish for Christ now and that which they are able to do by means of service and Receive by means of reward later because right now does count for eternity.
Speaker 3:Second Corinthians 5. Every man will have to give an account of the good and the evil done in the body, and I think Paul is speaking to believers there in second Corinthians, so that that means that good and evil will be evaluated for the believer. How faithful were you in the midst of your peripitas, in the midst of your, your walk and and and.
Speaker 2:A far more startling Translation of that is because believers would say what do you mean evil? I think a better translation of that particular term is for the good and the worthlessness. Yeah, yeah, are they empty?
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, because I can be a believer who is not necessarily trying to produce evil, but my life is worth nothing for the glory of Christ and for the furtherance of his kingdom. And so even that which I'm doing is given over to such banality, such emptiness, if you will, that it is in the words of CS Lewis that with which I am distracted, so that I might not be a real contention against the powers of darkness and forward the cause of Christ.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what a statement well said, david. I want to bring you into the conversation here because as I watch your ministry with our youth and as I watch how practical you are in leading our our youth, I'm noticing that they are often with you in areas where you're calling them to serve and get their hands dirty per se. Speak to that, because you have always been a Huge servant, as I've watched you in your ministry and as you have your ministry here.
Speaker 4:Talk to us just about your heart, how the Lord has led you in those directions in the last couple of years well, as you guys know, youth ministry is something I started out with in college and serving in youth ministry at the college level with a traveling ministry team we went around and did skits and led Bible studies and Let worship and led these events and then went into associate ministry in Iowa, worked with youth there and then worked with youth here in Kansas for a period of 10 to 12 years and then went into soul pastor at ministry and Then after that you know, the Lord calls away from that church where we were doing soul pastor at ministry and the Didn't open up another church.
Speaker 4:So I started working in with youth and a local community resource, working with foster kids and Then in the oil field and then in the construction field and it's about five or six years out of full-time ministry to youth or otherwise. But have been super blessed since the Lord called me to this position because I I feel like that period of time outside of full-time ministry Whereas it was it was a learning experience. I think I've joked with Kyle then it made me a little harder.
Speaker 3:It gave you a healthy callous.
Speaker 4:a healthy callous yeah but the coming back into ministry at this point in In my life has. It gives me a new perspective because I don't have the physical energy in a natural sense that I used to, and that was one fear. But I have a little bit more patience now and as I'm looking at this generation of Young people, I see the same need for Christ there but there ever was. The cultural influences are similar but greater, I think, with Moral relativism, with the LGBTQ Influence and all these things in our culture.
Speaker 4:But one thing that's unique about our group in particular is that they are largely homeschooled private Christian here at our church here at our church at Ottawa Bible and and I I feel that they have a pretty good, for the most part, knowledge of the Bible, but they have been raised and they have been trained in the word and the Lord has brought me into to this position, in a place where I can bring that practicality into. I Think the Lord is using that Relational evangelism with them and that we can look at what is it? How do we, how do we take this knowledge that we have of the Bible and apply it to our lives and apply it to our ministry and and what we're doing, and also the challenge of We've been praying over the challenge of Encouraging and leading the kids to see that they're not just a Subgroup or subculture within the church, but they are a part of the church. That's right.
Speaker 4:If they're in Christ and absolutely if they are in Christ, we are a part of the church. So what does it look like to for youth group as a practice of what service in the church looks like and also as we serve in the church together? And and Kyle, you know, led them in that prior to me and making sure that they were plugged into ways to serve practically. But we also have a little bit of fun too. But I I'm not big on the games, but I am big on having fun, even within Bible study. That we have fun with, we have fun with the word and we have fun in fellowship talking about the Lord and talking about our own flaws and insufficiencies outside of the Lord. But that's been good. I actually I actually had a question for CEO let's go that I was waiting.
Speaker 4:It's like Working with them. This is my first podcast, so I'm I'm still learning how to jump into the jump rope here.
Speaker 4:You know like okay okay, but Well, talking about discipleship, the we were defining discipleship and and we talked about that in In the time of Jesus, leading up to Culturally, discipleship was a concept, as a practice that was not foreign. You know that, they understood, you know this, this model of leader, follower, disciple or disciple. But what are some ways? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what are some ways that Jesus Changed the mold or broke the mold of discipleship, did things differently than what, in his culture, would have been the usual, and how? How does that inform us? You know, if so, if, if it was a change, and how Jesus discipled and called us into making disciples. How does that affect?
Speaker 2:the way we disciple Absolutely. I think that's a very insightful question. What you've asked is what was there a continuity? And indeed there were. Several of the rabbis had Tomadim, had disciples, had students, right, the language of follow me is very familiar, whether it is a scenario such as one Kings 19, where you see an Eliyahu or an Elijah throwing the coke over Elisha and he understands that act to be follow me and he's going to do that for the next seven to eight years before he actually becomes the preeminent prophet, right? So we certainly see this in several areas of the culture. So you were right to say there's a continuity, but you were also accurate to point out there is a discontinuity.
Speaker 2:There is a, there is a distinguishing facet I should say a series of different distinguishing facets to to the Christian model of discipleship, to the Judeo Christian model of discipleship, that is, that is very much different from the other Judea, greek, roman facets of discipleship in the first century. If we were to turn to Luke, chapter six and verse number 40. Let me go there for a moment. In Luke, chapter six, verse number 40, a pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Speaker 2:Now I want to pause, because the other rabbis had students who wanted to be like them. It was an honor, it was a privilege to say I've studied under Gamaliel right and so you had these various individuals who were known by the rabbis that they followed, and the goal was to have similarities or simulatitude to them so that you really further their name. Here's what Jesus does differently he is the preeminent one to follow and even though you'll have other disciples training other disciples, they are never to train them to follow them as much as they are to train them to follow and become like Christ. That is distinct. So Paul would say not follow me and become a polling disciple.
Speaker 3:In fact, he'd rebuke that from chapter one, right he?
Speaker 2:would say follow me as I follow Christ. So whether it was Peter, whether it was Barnaba, whether it was Kifa, or rather Kifa and Peter, one and the same, whether it was Paul, whether it was James, all of these individuals understand themselves to have one rabbi and to be leading everyone to one rabbi. So how is it distinct? In one way, it is that we do not become rabbis in and of ourselves. We have a main rabbi that is immutable, that is unchangeable and is irreplaceable, and he is the one that all peoples are called to follow, and I said all peoples, all ethnos, all people groups, wherever they are on the planet. If they are brought into discipleship, they are brought in to learn of him, to be like him and to follow him. Right. But there's another facet to that. If I continue in the same Lucan literature over to chapter number nine, jesus' discipleship starts off with a negative undertone, verse 23,. And he was saying to them all if anyone wishes to come after me negatively, you have to deny yourself. Secondarily, you take up what instrument of torture and death? No other rabbi is going to say take up your cross. That's the way to dismiss Talmudim, not to garner them. But Jesus has this negative nuance. And he says you need to realize coming to me is death to self. The other rabbi is coming to you. Gamaliel is prominence for me, it's recognition for me, it's claim for me. Coming to Jesus, it's death. For me, it's denial of me, it's the lack and loss of me. And let me just look at a couple of things within the framework of this particular passage. Really quick, you're still in Luke nine, yes. First of all, why should he be followed? Because, distinctly, unlike any other, he is not just the human, he is the divine human, the Son of man, the Daniel 7 figure in verse 22. The Son of man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and be raised on the third day. And he was saying to them by the way, this is participial he had continued to say to them this was, this is ongoing, if anyone wishes to come after me. By the way, who would want to follow verse 22? There's this automatic shock and awe, not of a positive nature, but the sort that takes your breath away. And he says if anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself Self was a big issue in the first century, particularly in the Greek Empire.
Speaker 2:Also in the Roman Empire, the celebration of the body by the Greeks. Until one did away with the body, play to a stick. Thinking right, nostic thinking, because it was worthless to get you to the real spiritual essence of who you were. The Romans to praise the, the conquering, the physicality, the accomplishments, here and now. This is a call to the Roman Empire. This is a call to Self-affacement. Deny yourself.
Speaker 2:Even in modernity, the self is what Dr Sigmund Freud wanted to release, isn't it that everything seems to try to place a hamper on self and? And? And you want to escape all of these fallacious figments of the imagination, called conscience, that were imposed on you by your parents, and you want to have the realized, enlightened self that can do any and everything that it wants to. Jesus says discipleship knows nothing of the sort, whether it's in the first century or whether it's in modernity. He goes further. He must deny himself. Take up, discipleship involves a weight that is in Simulitude to the weight that Jesus carried what he alludes to in verse number 22 and dying, is a crossbar, crossbeam, the pdellum. That's going to be about 75 to 150 pounds across the nape of the neck.
Speaker 2:The disciple in the first century in Judaism, yoke himself with the Torah. He had a weight that he took on Jesus is my yoke is easy, but it's a yoke about the nape of the neck of the disciple. That is an instrument of death to the world and death to oneself. He says he must take up his instrument of death and of torture to self and, in connection with verse 22, he has to join me and die. If you wish, if that is your desire, to come after me, he must take up his cross. By the way, that's not your private little struggle, that is directly associated in affiliation and affiliated with you want to follow me as a rabbi. You want my fame, you want my glitz, you want my glam, you want, you want my recognition. I'm recognized for dying, I'm recognized for suffering. Take that up. And he says take up that cross daily and Follow me.
Speaker 2:So there are several distinguishing factors, including the eternal truths that one is learning, because we know that Gamaliel was a great teacher and whilst we know some of the things that we taught he taught, rather, we do not still have his teachings lingering at nauseam available to us, and we could go through several other teachers, but the eternality of the word of God, the grass withers the flower fades when the breath of the Lord blows upon it. Surely, the people are grass, the grass withers the flower fades. But these eternal truths that we have undertaken to learn, these are the words of God that last forever. So, albeit there are some cultural similarities, there are far more eternal dissimilarities that distinguish the disciples of Christ from any other. Talmudim of the day. I.
Speaker 3:Think. While on one hand very heavy to undertake the task of dying to self in order to follow Christ, there's another side of the coin From Matthew 11, 25. At that time Jesus said I praise you, father, lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, father, for this way was well pleasing in your sight. This is all. Things have been handed over to me by my father and no one knows the son except the father. Nor does Anyone know the father except the son and anyone to whom the son wills to reveal him.
Speaker 3:Verse 28 come to me All who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Then he goes on to say take my yoke upon you and learn from me. I am gentle and humble and heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Much could be said about rest, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light. And when you made that comment about, you know, an individual taking on the yoke of Torah, especially as they they followed the rabbinic teachers of the day, they prided themselves and how heavy that yoke was. But in contrast, here's Jesus saying my yoke is light, my yoke is easy, you know, and there's something about following Christ which is light, to the extent that it is not me in and of myself, my own Self-sufficient nature, saying I've got to follow Christ, but it's it's rather him through me, enabling me, his good enablement, his empowerment which allows me to walk in, and the burdenlessness of following him in the same breath, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I'd like to give your audience, maybe, a picture of discipleship that they haven't necessarily associated with discipleship. It's the shepherd and the sheep. What does the discipleship look like? Being led by the great shepherd, whoever the under shepherd is. The sheep are owned by the great shepherd and when we're discipling we remember that we do not own one of the sheep that we're discipling, that he is the owner of the sheep. Secondarily, we must spend time with the sheep and Our voices must fade, giving way to Teaching them to have a familiarity with his voice and the content thereof, which means we have to sit with them, spend time with them, sing to them, talk with them, familiarize them with the scent of godliness and righteousness and the voice of God, so that they respond to him even greater to than us.
Speaker 2:The next thing is we have to be involved in what is necessary to lead them in paths of righteousness For his namesake. We can't take them haphazardly down the mountainous terrain or topography of life. We must walk them down well-worn paths that other disciples have been walked through safely by Christ to get them where he wants them to be. We must debug them, we must shear them, we must carry them, we must pin them, put them in safe corrals. We must protect them from wolves and from thieves and we mustn't take advantage of them, ezekiel, we must oil them. Sometimes we must break their legs in discipline. Then we must carry them, we must hook them to pull them back from danger. We must use our rod and staff To actually guard them from wolves that may come toward them. I think there is that paradigmatic picture of what discipleship looks like in a cultural depiction, namely Shepherd, the flock of God, over which I have made you, over which the Holy Spirit has made you, over the seniors.
Speaker 1:Amen. Thank you so much for listening to the be disciples podcast. Thank you, cio, for joining us for our hundredth episode to give a deeper look at what is Discipleship, and so we hope that you are encouraged and we're equipped in this episode. Continue to share with your family and friends the podcast. Go ahead and write us on their five stars, give us some comments. We just want to continue to help in the equipping of the Saints by using God's word, by opening it up and having discussion About it. Thank you all and see you next time. God bless you you.